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[fic] What Measure is a Navi [Nov. 28th, 2010|12:21 pm]
rockman_dot_exe

rockman_dot_exe

[kaisuopai]
Hi, all. I'm not quite sure of the protocol for posting fanfics; if they're frowned on here, I apologize in advance.

Even if you don't read the fic, however, this is a question that I'd really like to hear some input and discussion on, if you're up to it.

I've been writing a fanfic that tries to deal with the odd way the Rockman.EXE universe treats Navis. Are they expendable programs that can be modified, deleted, and backed up at the drop of a hat, or are they basically people who deserve all the respect that humans do? (And are those two ways of looking at them actually mutually exclusive?) I know the general focus of EXE is on the latter, but characters make statements to the former often in the games, and I thought it would be interesting to explore this question a bit more.

The fic itself is set halfway during the Axess anime arc, and involves an original character. I've tried to make this OC into a balanced - and flawed - character in her own right, not just a vehicle for my philosophical questions. If you think I've failed or succeeded, please tell me so.

Summary: Ijuin Enzan has just lost Blues to the Dark Chip. Desperate to do something, he accepts help offered from the Ameroupe Net Saviors in the form of a young programming specialist. But however skilled List is, Enzan couldn't help but wonder at her somewhat odd behavior, and his eventual discovery forces both him and List to make a crucial decision.
Content: Japanese names, no pairings, warning for occasional crude language.

Chapters 1-3, on FF.net

EDIT: Also, if someone wouldn't mind telling me; if I were to update this fic sometime in the not-too-recent future (say, a week later), would it be all right for me to make another post alerting people to the update?
linkReply

Comments:
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[User Picture]From: cxrdevil
2010-11-28 05:38 pm (UTC)
HI OK I HAVE OPENED THE FIC IN ANOTHER TAB AND MIGHT NOT EVEN GET TO IT OR A REVIEW TODAY BECAUSE LOL OC FLIST CHECKING BUT
OMG
EXE FIC
WHAT!!

I'm working on a couple of fanfictions for exent and it is the point where THIS FANDOM HAS BEEN DEAD FOR HOW LONG FORGET IT
omg so i haven't read the fic yet but i am certain it will be THE BEST THING THAT HAS HAPPENED IN THREE HUNDRED YEARS
luv luv luv luv luv
(Reply) (Thread)
[User Picture]From: cxrdevil
2010-11-28 05:47 pm (UTC)
oh goodness excitement sorry.

Ok so I'm sure I'll have more to say after actually reading but on the NAVIs as people vs. programs thing: It seems like most people talk about them like they're just data across all canon, and that's the general consensus of society since lol what robots are people too no way, and we just know characters who treat them as people because THEY ARE THE GOOD GUYS/ROCK HAS A SOUL, that sort of thing. In the games, they're certainly referred to as just data that can be backed up. In the comic, it comes up once in a while - Netto calls Rockman "just a program" or something when he's mad in that cute childhood omake, there's a couple instances of people getting riled at netnavis overstepping their boundaries or whatever. Forte is a big deal when he rolls around. And in the show, it's rarer still though that might just be because I haven't seen it in um idk like a hundred and eighty point five months.

We definitely know there are NAVIs and progs that, although they have a certain personality about them, are just skeleton data that can be deleted, backed up, or edited, no waterworks involved. We also know that there's something real and special about the custom navis we are introduced to. I always figured most people don't see them as actual people and some do, life and death situations or full synchro aside (like how lots of people will talk to their pokemon game, but even more are just playing the game POKEMON ARE NOT LIVING BEINGS so why are we incapable of releasing them ;;)
I'm sure if Netto I keep writing Lan and having to change it what is my life went on to higher education and actually got to know the folks he battles recreationally with, he'd realize that he is fortunate to have spent his childhood saving the world with superheroes avec hearts of gold and that not so many people are BEST FRIENDS FOREVER BROTHERS FROM COMPUTER MOTHERS with their netnavis.

almost an apology for longwinded simple answer but not really i'm pretty excited to see a post in this comm
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand)
[User Picture]From: digi148
2010-11-28 06:57 pm (UTC)
Don't worry, any fan work is more than welcome here.
(Reply) (Thread)
[User Picture]From: krystalphoenix
2010-11-28 07:53 pm (UTC)
Ah I've been reading this and I'm looking forward to seeing where you're going with this~

I also spotted in the manga that yes, Netto calls Rockman "just a program" when he's upset, but there's also a bit right in the first volume. Gutsman get's deleted and Netto thinks "Be cool Dex, Gutsman can be regenerated from backup." (English manga - so used Dex). This seems to be a far cry from how he acts when Rockman is threatened with deletion.

The relationship an operator has with their navi seems to heavily hinge on whether or not the navi is a custom built one or not and then on the personality of the operator - how they treat their own navi.

You've actually got me thinking about comparing this to a concept in a sci-fi series I've read which seems on some level comparable - when something looks human and can speak and think can it be human if it's a program?

You've put forward a good question~
So much to think about
(Reply) (Thread)
[User Picture]From: digi148
2010-11-28 08:21 pm (UTC)


(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
[User Picture]From: digi148
2010-11-28 08:25 pm (UTC)
Well then, what would you do in this situation?
(Reply) (Thread)
[User Picture]From: kaisuopai
2010-11-28 08:34 pm (UTC)
Whoa, wait

The manga actually acknowledged that Rockman was Saito? When did this happen?

Or was this one of those random comments that Miyuki just kinda...leaves out there?
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand)
[User Picture]From: digi148
2010-11-28 08:50 pm (UTC)
Yes! Continue to make posts! Especially for these kinds of discussions, makes people think.
(Reply) (Thread)
[User Picture]From: cxrdevil
2010-11-28 10:24 pm (UTC)
PREACH! I'm really enjoying this post.
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
From: (Anonymous)
2011-05-30 07:50 pm (UTC)

1/2

I had college! ;_; but now I can tl;dr! 8D Even though I don't know if anyone will even reply to this, considering it's been about half a year since this was posted!

I'm only an expert in the anime, so yeah, most of my rambling will only be about that. (also, this is one of the reasons I don't like Saito when I think too hard about him. Don't tell anybody! But as someone who likes the EXE characters as an ensemble, and not just "Netto! Rockman! Oh, and those useless friends of his that make him go on fetch quests and rescue their Navis all the time," the idea that 'SAITO WAS A HUUUUMAAAAN!" really weirds me out, because to me, it's saying that Roll and Blues, y'know... aren't good enough, and can never be good enough. It says Meiru and Enzan should just quit now, because much as they want to, even though her heart may be in the right place or he wants to be great so badly he trains for hours every day, they can't beat the bosses, they don't have the human-Navi, they're not special enough. (EXE3 does this all over the place, and it's my one complaint about it!) It's saying that Rockman/Roll really shouldn't happen, because Roll is fundamentally lesser than him, and it'd sort of be like making out with your toaster. Like, you can love her, and she'll say she loves you if it'll make you happy, but she'll never really love you, because SHE ISN'T HUUUMAAAN. Hell, you could have an entire harem of Rolls, just run a bunch of backups of her simultaneously! ugh it's so restrictive and I hate it, so I adhere sternly to anime canon. There, things are more like, "Saito doesn't exist! Enzan, Laika, Meiru, Dingo, and all the others are perfectly capable of standing alongside Netto in battles, there is nothing physically stopping them from taking levels in badass! Rockman/Roll is cute! Life is good!" I even think this kind of thing is why it gets swept under the rug and/or goes unexplored (or even ignored, hello EXEs 4 and 5) so much in the games, same with the link--it's like the guys in charge of scenario are going, "Gee, this has some unfortunate implications... Let's pretend it doesn't exist unless we want it to!")

But as I was saying before the massive derail, as someone who's most into the anime, I'd say sentience is according to how much you're willing to pay or how hard you're willing to work.

Off-the-shelf Navis? They're like any piece of hardware when you've just gotten it--blank slates for you to instruct. Which is pretty reinforced by how anyone shown Operating one is constantly pushing PET buttons, sending it commands at all times. It's probably worse than the game Navis, when I think about it. It doesn't even pretend to be human, it never really talks unless it's a status update. When it gets hit with an attack, it recoils but doesn't scream. It knows how to run your PET and follow your detailed instructions, and that's it.

Moderately customized Navis, like the Net Bank tellers or Police Navis? Depends on the skill of the programmer, and his or her needs. As I see it, Navis are object-oriented, and the personality/interaction would take up a few objects, perhaps 'friendly' along with specialized things like a 'ask the customer how he is, wait for a reply' for the teller and a 'blowing up the city is wrong, find the perpetrator' for the policeman. They can remember stuff, but whether they learn anything from it or not, again, depends--the bank teller probably can remember faces, but she doesn't really care about anything outside her station. The policeman has instant access to the wanted list, and can flesh out or add an entry to said list, but he doesn't care about or remember much else. So they may or may not be sentient, but their behavior definitely isn't human. Kind of a borderline case. (This is sort of what I'm seeing the Lucs as--List doesn't give a crap about their personality or memories, she just wants them to recognize attacks and react accordingly. They've got battle AI and nothing else.)
(Reply) (Thread)
From: (Anonymous)
2011-05-30 07:51 pm (UTC)

2/2

A Custom Navi like Rockman, Roll, Blues, or basically any of the N1 contestants, made by a computer scientist like Yuuichirou or Meijin, is very different. They're expensive enough that not everyone has one, families share (Iceman is loaned to Tohru but works with Seiji, neither Tesla nor Ann have their 'own' Navis but take their father's or husband's), and businesses that have them put them in the hands of leaders (Seiji again, Enzan, Gauss's cover company). They're probably massively complicated, and almost certainly sentient. I figure that most Custom Navis have some way to write their own personality modules, so they can be much more diverse than any other tier. They may start off with a base personality, but just existing will cause them to write new files, new facets--things like the memory of his Operator's face, the fact that she's not supposed to disturb the family during dinner, the range of an Elec Sword slash, even liking or disliking people or things--which makes a complete recovery of corrupted files very difficult, and a backup either ridiculously large or constantly incomplete. They're so multifaceted, they're just like people. When you lose one, you really have lost a partner--they're completely capable of understanding you or growing fond of you. They're all like siblings or partners. Reverting to how the Navi was originally would be like having a new person there with the dead one's face--which I think is why most people seem to prefer to just get a new Navi and don't keep a copy of the original file.

tl;dr: I dun like superior-by-nature characters in my children's internet games, so I live in animeverse, where throwing money at programmers can give an Operator all the potential he or she needs.

Onto the actual review! I love List because she's so completely different from how Operators and even computer scientists were shown in the show, she just lumps all Navis into one non-sentient mass whether they're Custom or not. I'd never come up with a character like her. XD So firstly, I salute you for that. I love how compared to the others, she's so overconfident, and she can back that up because of her attitude toward Navis--most people are like, 'Nebula is horrible! It's a big deal when they attack!' while List is like, 'woohoo, Nebula Navis! I probably don't care if they delete a Luc or two, so I essentially have no stakes in this battle besides getting annoyed when they overstep their bounds! What fun!'

And all the other characters seemed to be in-character. Especially the moment at the end of 3, that was just so Yuuichirou. Enzan, too, is his sensible self. ^^ I especially like how he's unnerved by how List fights, but he's not being all 'NO UR WRONG' like Netto would be. Because you can't say that--List's Navis may be wildly different from the norm, and Enzan and Yuuichirou may be a little unnerved, but her method is so effective that they really have no solid argument against it.

But while it may work for most cases, I do see a flaw in List's strategy that a regular Navi and Operator would be able to compensate for. I'll just wait and see whether you're going to exploit that weakness or whether you've got a completely different one that I didn't pick up on. :D (and who knows, maybe List has it covered and I don't realize it yet!)

(and because I am nitpicky, tiiiny error in chapter 4 - it's pretty clear it's supposed to read '...testing new Navi customization methods with him on a daily basis. Enzan had...' Instead, it's '...testing new Navi customization methods with him on a daily had...' There might have been an earlier typo, but I don't remember where. ^^; But that's all.)

In closing, I know it's been a while since you posted, but I enjoyed this a lot, and felt like commenting all the same. It got me to think about an aspect of EXE that I don't normally think about. :)
(Reply) (Thread)
[User Picture]From: kaisuopai
2011-05-31 05:03 am (UTC)

ohai fellow anime-canon anon

I had college too! Which is why it's...still on chapter 4 even though I have the entire story more or less plotted. Yeah.

D:

I think you might be me from the future. Your ideas regarding different levels of Navi sentience is something that I've been gradually moving towards while pondering the topic, and I've just started realizing how problematic it would be for Rock to only be special-because-human.

RAMBLING

However, it's still possible to have some debate over where exactly the line of sentient-or-not is drawn, and even what exactly constitutes sentience or individuality for Navis. Police Navis might have personal experiences that are limited to them alone, and remember them as their job demands, but does that make them individual? Does a Police Navi's ability to think rationally about pursuing its targets make it sentient, or just a very logical tool? This is important to ask for custom Navis as well, since it is arguable that a custom Navi is simply a beefed-up police Navi with different thinking modules - perhaps including personality, faction/alliance/morality, strategy, and the like. Now, which combined subset of those modules would make a custom Navi "sentient", and separate it from the more tool-like police and banker Navis?

And even then, maybe I'm thinking about it the wrong way. Colonel and Iris, in both anime and game, were split halves of the same Navi, and each had different specializations - but it would be difficult to argue that neither was sentient. What if, instead of a set of modules that consisted sentience, there was a central "core" that stored the supposed sentience program? This core would be expensive to install and unfeasible for mass-produced Navis, which use a lower-level thinking core, but for custom Navis, it would act as a CPU which performs the various human-like, personal functions that you've mentioned above. And that'd lead into the question of whether non-human-created Navis like Junkman, which formed out of the internet's scrap data, are actually sentient. Does Junkman
a.) have a crude approximation of the sentience core due to some of that junk data possibly having come from Navis,
b.) have an entirely different sentience core due to junk data somehow naturally coalescing to form sentient entities, or
c.) only pretend to be sentient?

It's questionable, but for story purposes, I'll probably assume a combination of a.) and b.), since c.) doesn't event sit well with a large number of in-universe Navi backstories. And then one could ask what actually goes into the sentience core that makes it different from the lower-level thinking cores, but I'll have to handwave that and make the sentience core essentially a black box, or risk philosophical agony.

tl;dr author subscribes to similar multi-level conception of Navi sentience, which is probably philosophically dodgy as hell but spending any more effort on it would be futile.

In any case, you've certainly given me some ideas and some things to think about as well, for the next few chapters - WHENEVER I get around to writing them.

And I'm glad you liked List! I've been a bit concerned that she comes off as too...capable, and a mild Mary Sue, and that's actually been putting me off this story for a while. However, I've come to the conclusion that it's ultimately too difficult to introduce this topic without letting its one proponent be a bit more openly confrontational and important to the plot.

So I'll keep writing as soon as possible - and you've hit the nail on the head with some of your points regarding sentience, which the story will definitely touch on, but in the interest of preserving what little suspense I have I can't say which ones. /o/

Finally, if you'd like to talk over other philosophical points, EXE in general, or just fangirl, please feel free to ask me! I'd love to be able to discuss things with another EXE fan after all this time, especially someone who also enjoys the anime in particular. :D
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yaaaay new chapter - (Anonymous) Expand
Oh shi- - (Anonymous) Expand
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